00:00:02:21 - 00:00:26:01 Speaker 1 Are we on? Let's go. Welcome to another episode of the OoruLabs podcast from Bengaluru. Ever complained how bad our cities are, how bad your commute is, you'll get to hear from people who are working to solve these problems in their own way. This is your weekly soapbox for Urban Sustainability. So do not forget to like, subscribe and share these videos. 00:00:26:03 - 00:00:55:01 Speaker 1 Check out the entire podcast library and profiles of the guests on the website podcast.oorulabs.com I am Sathya Sankaran with Sonal Kulkarni today. The Netherlands has always been leading from the front for more than 40 years, but the adoption of cycling in many cities have skyrocketed post the pandemic. And just about a couple of weeks ago, I saw on the Internet Brussels has been the latest poster boy. 00:00:55:07 - 00:01:22:01 Speaker 1 In just four years, bicycle trips tripled and car trips dropped by 14%. India has seen an uptick as well, mostly beginning with recreational riding. The pandemic saw sales increase on an average by 20%, but some stores saw spikes that cleared out their stock. However, the bicycle is still seen differently in India, mainly as a tool for sports and recreation. 00:01:22:03 - 00:01:49:16 Speaker 1 How do we change its image and increase? Adoption has been a challenge for most people, including me, who have been working in this domain to see how we can make this change happen. We have Professor Ruth Oldenziel a professor in the history of technology, and I know in University of Technology. She studied at Yale and has written many papers around sustainable transportation. 00:01:49:18 - 00:01:54:23 Speaker 1 She is the editor in chief of the Journal of Technology and Culture, published by the 00:01:54:23 - 00:02:10:12 Speaker 1 Johns Hopkins University. Her cycling cities projects, documents, cycling history from 14 cities across nine countries over 100 years. And we'll talk to her more about this and how it has grown and many other things. Welcome to the show, Professor Ruth. 00:02:10:12 - 00:02:12:01 Speaker 2 Thank you for inviting me. 00:02:12:01 - 00:02:17:23 Speaker 1 Do you think cycling as a commute vehicle in the cities has a future in this world at all? 00:02:17:23 - 00:02:56:09 Speaker 2 I'm actually quite surprised that you asked me that question, but that's maybe because I am very fortunate to be in a country where cycling is primarily a commuter vehicle. And I think the magic or the the key is in the Netherlands, at least that the combination of cycling with the train as before and after transport is really what has driven commuting by bicycle. 00:02:56:09 - 00:03:32:01 Speaker 2 it's not the only way. And let's tease out some of this. So when we say cycling, cycling can mean a lot of things, as you already indicated in your introductory remarks, it can be touring a lifestyle. It can mean a commuter bike. It can mean to get to friends to do shopping. But it also in many parts of the world, it means the lifeline for pedalers who use it to transport cargo. 00:03:32:03 - 00:04:20:09 Speaker 2 So when we take just this one aspect of commuting, there's no doubt in my mind that the bicycle can have that function. But it of course, depends very much on your urban planning. Is your city compact? Then you can commute by bike. Probably. If if your site of work is within cycling distance, that's one factor. But as I indicated in the Netherlands, I myself, I commute an hour and 10 minutes by train and I have bicycles on each sides or I walk and I can cover long distances. 00:04:20:09 - 00:04:54:10 Speaker 2 So urban planning is just one piece of that story. And the second is that with e-biking. The distance also has been lengthened off the radius. So it really depends on the context what whether we can answer that question. But just as a general said, absolutely. And it is a very convenient means of transportation. It's it's cheap, it's flexible. 00:04:54:12 - 00:05:13:00 Speaker 2 And I can tell you from a country that is known where there's a lot of rain, that when you ask people why they're not commuting by bicycle, they always say, well, it rains. Well, the cyclists union in the Netherlands has calculated 00:05:13:00 - 00:05:24:14 Speaker 2 how often it's that it actually rains. So can you take a guess or any of your listeners, what would you guess how, you know, the Netherlands is a little bit like England? 00:05:24:14 - 00:05:27:15 Speaker 2 What would your guess? How often does it rain? 00:05:27:15 - 00:05:29:13 Speaker 1 maybe 70%? No. 00:05:29:15 - 00:05:31:21 Speaker 2 Not 6%. 00:05:31:23 - 00:05:32:23 Speaker 1 Really? Wow. 00:05:32:23 - 00:06:00:01 Speaker 2 Yes. So here is also, I think one element that we find in research is that perceptions play a big role. What motivates people to to go in and work or not? And that is very important when you create policy, is to really listen carefully how people reason and what what they see, how they perceive the bicycle. 00:06:00:01 - 00:06:11:14 Speaker 2 I would assume that in India, you were referencing the fact that there's a lot of uptake in leisure biking. 00:06:11:16 - 00:06:19:20 Speaker 2 But I would also assume that in India, many, many people are using the bicycle to transport goods. 00:06:19:20 - 00:06:48:03 Speaker 2 And usually that means, unfortunately, that it has a reputation of being low class of people who cannot afford a car. Now that mindset is really unfortunate because where I come from as a historian and of technology, I think the bicycle is one of our most brilliant innovations of all times. 00:06:48:05 - 00:07:12:19 Speaker 2 Why am I saying this? Well, I mean, from an innovation point of view, if you look at innovations in the 1890, when the bicycle came to, you know, matured as a very handy mode of transportation, it it was quickly adopted as the most, you know, the modern machine. 00:07:12:19 - 00:07:17:04 Speaker 2 you could say from an innovation point of view, it hasn't changed much, 00:07:17:04 - 00:07:20:23 Speaker 2 but that also means that it has proven its utility. 00:07:20:23 - 00:07:54:17 Speaker 2 what is so interesting, if you look over time, the bicycle was once the most modern thing that anyone could purchase, and it was highly valued and everybody wanted it. Then it got as more and more people were using it high class in middle class. And that tastemakers we're really casting it as something for the poor, something that was not desirable, particularly because the car industry, of course, made sure to put four wheels. 00:07:54:17 - 00:08:26:09 Speaker 2 The car as the modern machine. Now we're in interesting times because you will find not only in many countries that the bicycle is embraced as really our best vehicle for a more sustainable future. But we also find and maybe you can enlighten me on India in this respect, that you might have two kinds of representation ideas of what cycling is. 00:08:26:09 - 00:08:50:20 Speaker 2 On the one hand, as a vehicle of the poor and on the other hand as a leisure machine. I know examples in Africa, for example, in Mozambique, it is seen as only rural people cannot afford a car use it. But at the same time, in Maputo, if you are high class and on some days you do a bicycle. 00:08:50:21 - 00:09:16:09 Speaker 2 Now, now from an innovation point of view, still a thing on two wheels. All right. So it's only the image in our mind of what it means that is so very important. And so, you know, this is a very roundabout way to to your question. Is the bicycle, the vehicle for the future for commuting? Absolutely, yes. 00:09:16:09 - 00:09:30:20 Speaker 3 in your reply to this question, you were talking about car being one of the means of all or actually being aspirational for many people here in India and many other countries. 00:09:30:20 - 00:09:43:20 Speaker 3 speaking from that, I would like to ask you this question. So what, according to you, has been the influence of an automobile in the way cities have been built over the past, you know, of decades? 00:09:43:22 - 00:09:51:13 Speaker 3 I would say both in America and how American city building has influenced other countries. 00:09:51:13 - 00:10:15:12 Speaker 2 Without a doubt. I mean, you cannot tell the story of the bicycle without taking into account the enormous power that the automotive industry has had, the impact all over the world, globally. Now, there's a really fantastic book of colleague Peter Norton on 00:10:15:12 - 00:10:31:00 Speaker 2 On Traffic and the campaign of US industry since 1927, really to export this notion that the car is the only way to the future. 00:10:31:00 - 00:11:00:03 Speaker 2 Now we have to remind ourselves that in the 1920s and thirties the car was a very expensive it was a toy thing for for high class or stock. Ritchie royalty. And it really did not have as as a college house. One always reminds me it took a long, long time for the car to become accessible to the male middle class. 00:11:00:05 - 00:11:32:20 Speaker 2 And it took an enormous propaganda machine to to make that happen. And I'm pointing this to a couple of things. So the fact that the US became a superpower after the war and was instrumental in building up and defeated countries in Europe and made suburbia and the car future, part of that vision was, of course important. And we see this also in China since the 1990s also has embraced it. 00:11:33:00 - 00:12:07:16 Speaker 2 And there are many countries that are struggling with that vision because it does not always fit urban development. So that American driven auto mobility has been important. But at this point, I cannot say that it is a an American vision. It is shared by many middle class and upper class people. One and two, what's also important, let's let's also look at our labor unions in the 1950s. 00:12:07:17 - 00:12:37:22 Speaker 2 Labor unions taking forward as an example. And General Motors really saw that workers could get good incomes. If you supported the automotive industry. So the automotive industry became the gold standard for economic progress for. So labor unions everywhere are supporting that economy, that fossil fuel economy. And then I think that that is also something that we need to acknowledge. 00:12:38:00 - 00:13:00:18 Speaker 2 Now, at some point, the workers who were making the cars were not necessarily the same people that were buying the cars. I think they got good incomes, but they were not the consumers of that. But that over time, the people who made the cars are more and more aspiring to become also the consumers of the very products that they're making. 00:13:00:20 - 00:13:30:19 Speaker 2 So that is a back story that is very important to look at. And I'm just taking China as an example, but you can find this story locally all over the world, is that China has invested in the car industry as the gold standard for economic growth. At the same time, it's also and it has also that vision that every Chinese should have a car. 00:13:30:21 - 00:13:46:14 Speaker 2 But it's also exporting that vision to places in Africa. And it's and it's also producing lots of bicycles for an export market. So we need to address that issue as well. 00:13:46:14 - 00:13:48:14 Speaker 2 And in cities 00:13:48:14 - 00:13:50:17 Speaker 2 where there is a bicycle industry 00:13:50:17 - 00:14:02:11 Speaker 2 in China, for examples in France, and I'm sure in India as well, you will see that bicycle policy is also much more vibrant and and viable. 00:14:02:11 - 00:14:14:03 Speaker 3 what was the role of the automobile in changing the way like the cities were envisioned and how they cycle like cycling as an option sort of became 00:14:14:03 - 00:14:15:02 Speaker 3 secondary 00:14:15:02 - 00:14:26:21 Speaker 2 I think the urban planning vision of you have a business center in the middle and then you have suburbia where people can have a 00:14:26:21 - 00:14:53:19 Speaker 2 middle class lifestyle is very important. You see see that in inner cities around the world. I also think that it's it's not a one on one development because even in the U.S., there was always a a struggle between the car industry in the one hand and the public transit operators. 00:14:53:21 - 00:15:28:19 Speaker 2 And that is also a matter of public policy. Does. Does your city invest in public transit or not? So it is and it's not that the car industry is to be blamed for everything. It's also where their public policy has been investing in public transit and use developing it in relationship to its urban planning. Right. So there has been a suburban development that was based on public transit. 00:15:28:19 - 00:16:01:20 Speaker 2 And now I'm going to complicated a little bit for you, because as we have found in our research, is that where public transit is finally green and cheap and traveling big distances, you will not find cycling. We find it in cities actually where and now, traditionally, historically, you will find it in places where public transit has, for example, been too expensive for the working class. 00:16:01:22 - 00:16:39:06 Speaker 2 That is the story of Amsterdam. Amsterdam had a relatively expensive public transit and and the Netherlands, like Denmark, had relatively late automobile. So in this historic moment, you had people opting for cycling because it was cheaper and because cars were more expensive and were not viable yet. That was what happened in the 1970s. So there were still mobility options and there was not yet a sprawl. 00:16:39:08 - 00:16:57:02 Speaker 2 But of course, the U.S. and Australia and New Zealand, there are examples where urban sprawl is really to be blamed for not only that, there's no cycling, but also not pedestrian ism. If you look at the modal split, 00:16:57:02 - 00:16:58:09 Speaker 2 it's dramatic. 00:16:58:09 - 00:17:13:15 Speaker 1 more populated cities in countries like India would need to invest in public transit as well. And that is something that is afoot. There is a lot of that going around. What was interesting is while 00:17:13:15 - 00:17:25:12 Speaker 1 the Netherlands had a culture of cycling and public transport grew, and I don't know if it is more affordable now that more people are taking to public transit. 00:17:25:13 - 00:17:38:13 Speaker 1 But is there an adaptation to use Cycle plus train, which you mentioned very, very much in the beginning, because we're seeing that populated countries like India do end up having a little bit of a sprawl because 00:17:38:13 - 00:17:42:05 Speaker 1 there is a fear of not being able to manage 00:17:42:05 - 00:17:43:14 Speaker 1 dense development. 00:17:43:14 - 00:17:49:18 Speaker 1 And that fear arises from the fact that more and more people are choosing to buy motor vehicles. 00:17:49:19 - 00:18:09:10 Speaker 1 Obviously, you know that the aspirational goals in most developing countries has been to buy a more complex vehicle, which is more expensive. Just so you can say that I own something very complex in my hand and I can afford it. And that has always been it. And the industry likes it because more complex, more the cost and more the economic growth. 00:18:09:10 - 00:18:14:14 Speaker 1 In fact, they apparently the automobile industry is responsible for 7% of our GDP. 00:18:14:14 - 00:18:36:16 Speaker 1 But people don't look at the costs of that and GDP growth that arises out of that. But my interesting question is, there has been, like you mentioned, car dependance in certain countries like the United States, because the motor vehicle industry grew out of there. There has been where motor vehicles have been manufactured, like you said, like the like Germany and others. 00:18:36:16 - 00:18:39:08 Speaker 1 There have been slightly more car dependent. But 00:18:39:08 - 00:18:55:11 Speaker 1 What do you think moved Netherlands away from car dependance? And are you do you think it is a permanent move or do you think there is always constantly forces to get people back on what is controlling this balance and how does it shift? What is the role of the train and cycle? 00:18:55:11 - 00:19:01:16 Speaker 1 If you think cycling will only work in cities which don't have affordable transit networks? 00:19:01:16 - 00:19:06:02 Speaker 1 Is that desirable or is there a mix in between? What do you think? How have people done this? 00:19:06:06 - 00:19:32:06 Speaker 2 Okay. So here, I have to really refer to the research that we have done on India's different cities and what we what we really have discovered, and I think it's true for all cities around the world, is there's not one factor that explains it all, even though policymakers always want to find that one thing, like, okay, I'm building bicycle lanes, there they come. 00:19:32:06 - 00:19:57:21 Speaker 2 And now I have solved my mobility issue in the city. No. Or I'm only building compact cities. If you could do that overnight. No, that's not it. So what we have find found and there are five factors that are important and they need to come together. If not, then you will have less of cycling or more of cycling. 00:19:57:21 - 00:20:12:17 Speaker 2 So let me let me go through that because I really want people to understand that it is hard to get the right mix. So first of all, you know, you are an urban planner here, 00:20:12:17 - 00:20:16:18 Speaker 2 you can predict that a complex city city is good for cycling. 00:20:16:18 - 00:20:18:09 Speaker 2 rather than a sprawl. 00:20:18:09 - 00:20:19:20 Speaker 2 But that's not the only thing. 00:20:19:20 - 00:20:41:15 Speaker 2 What you also need is looking at the mobility alternatives. So never think only about cycling or auto mobility. It is really the mix of all where do people want to or want or have to walk to work or get around. 00:20:41:15 - 00:20:52:02 Speaker 2 How expensive is public transit and where is auto mobility in this mix? And so that's factor number two, the mobility alternatives. 00:20:52:02 - 00:20:55:05 Speaker 2 And in a way, the U.S. is 00:20:55:05 - 00:20:56:05 Speaker 2 atypical 00:20:56:05 - 00:20:57:21 Speaker 2 in most countries. 00:20:57:21 - 00:21:21:04 Speaker 2 There is also still a public transit. And then the question is, is it is it cheap or not? Is it accessible? There's lots of things that come into it. If public transit is very expensive, you will see more cycling here historically, where people walked and the distances became bigger. 00:21:21:05 - 00:21:46:19 Speaker 2 Then instead of walking to work, they cycled. So you have to look at cycling visa fee walking as well. And then finally, we always think that it's either taking the bike or the car. That is actually a kind of a recent dichotomy. So you have to look at the models at the fore. So that's factor number and number two. 00:21:46:21 - 00:22:10:11 Speaker 2 The third is, of course, policymaking. Do policymaking in the way they think about traffic? Do they take into account cycling? So what's the position of cycling or is our roads only built to get pedestrians out of the way and cyclist out of the way and make way either for public transit or ultimate ability or only ultimate mobility so that it's impacting number three? 00:22:10:11 - 00:22:35:07 Speaker 2 You really need to look at that and and and mixed use is usually better for cycling than separation of flows because then the flow of cars becomes the dominant, the gold standard. So that's factor number three. But we already talked in this podcast about how important representation is, you know, what is the image that people have about cycling? 00:22:35:07 - 00:23:03:23 Speaker 2 Is it modern? Is the lifestyle is only associated poverty or not? And it can change over time. And it does change because originally cycling was seen as something for the rich, the colonial administrators and so forth. And it can be debased, but it can also be in some places exist at the same time. So the bicycle can be both a lifestyle and something for the poor, so that you need to really figure that one out. 00:23:04:03 - 00:23:06:20 Speaker 2 And then finally, what is the 00:23:06:20 - 00:23:35:16 Speaker 2 public support for cycling? So what's the social movement? Are there people routing for cycling now for auto mobility, We have a very clear power block that's that is boosting automobile city. We also have vested interest, but not visible to the public for public transit. So where social movements for cycling are strong, you will see that cycling will actually thrive. 00:23:35:18 - 00:23:51:07 Speaker 2 So these five factors need to come together. And now here we come to the Netherlands, because no one no understand the Netherlands, the Netherlands is was lucky in some ways. So let's go through these different factors. 00:23:51:07 - 00:23:55:02 Speaker 2 So we have a lot of we had a lot of compact cities 00:23:55:02 - 00:24:01:19 Speaker 2 and there were a lot of planners who were really around 1900, 1920s, 1930s. 00:24:01:21 - 00:24:20:05 Speaker 2 They understood that it was nice and that you needed to preserve it. And they were actually measuring the extensions of cities of how for you, could you extend the city that was still within cycling distance said, do we think in terms of cycling? Very interesting. 00:24:20:05 - 00:24:32:06 Speaker 2 Secondly, I already talked about mobility alternatives. Automobile came late in the Netherlands and public transit in some cities was actually more expensive for most people. 00:24:32:08 - 00:24:36:13 Speaker 2 So that also helped cycling. Then the third, 00:24:36:13 - 00:25:04:22 Speaker 2 we were actually here we didn't do, but we were one of the first countries that was the our engineers were thinking about the future of traffic and we're thinking about automobile IP. So they compared everything for us to mobility. That did not help cycling. But now the last two factors, so the image of cycling was very middle class. 00:25:05:00 - 00:25:35:12 Speaker 2 Are queens and kings all cycle still to this day are prime ministers commute to parliament by bike. And it is a and everybody has a bicycle. That does not mean that they don't have other vehicles. They might also have a car. They might they also take public transit. So the mobility mix is it's not your only not cyclist or a car driver. 00:25:35:12 - 00:25:44:01 Speaker 2 You are all these different things. So that is very important. And then finally, the social movement. So in the seventies, we have this moment where people 00:25:44:01 - 00:25:45:18 Speaker 2 still remember 00:25:45:18 - 00:25:48:19 Speaker 2 and value cycling and these 00:25:48:19 - 00:25:53:10 Speaker 2 car interests were trying to destroy the historic cities 00:25:53:10 - 00:26:05:20 Speaker 2 to make way for our mobility. And a lot of people, Rosa, mothers, children, journalist, ordinary people, it was very broad based. 00:26:05:22 - 00:26:13:02 Speaker 2 So that is why the Netherlands today is known as a cycling country. But he used to secret. 00:26:13:02 - 00:26:14:18 Speaker 2 We are also 00:26:14:18 - 00:26:17:05 Speaker 2 we have the most intense 00:26:17:05 - 00:26:35:23 Speaker 2 public transit train system as well. And we also have a lot of auto mobility. So we are very mobile society and cycling is part of that mix. So the question is for India or other countries is to fix a to to figure out what the right mix is. 00:26:36:01 - 00:26:50:03 Speaker 2 But I would say that the United States in so many ways is not the model. And I'm hoping that China understands that as well, because China still has a lot of public transit as well. Right. And is investing in it. And people walking 00:26:50:09 - 00:26:53:07 Speaker 3 to us a little bit more about the Cycling Cities project 00:26:53:07 - 00:26:57:05 Speaker 3 so that we can understand what this whole project is. 00:26:57:07 - 00:26:58:21 Speaker 2 Yeah. So 00:26:58:21 - 00:27:37:10 Speaker 2 it started out in the 1990s with this seemingly simple question that you also asked. Why do the Dutch cycle. And in order to have a get an answer to this one person and then two people started to develop this notion okay how you know, let's compare to other European cities. And they developed these factors that I was talking about, although they only looked at the urban form at the time or the mobility alternatives and the traffic engineering vision. 00:27:37:12 - 00:28:10:14 Speaker 2 And then we since then developed and we realized that the cultural notions of cycling is important and the social movement. So we now have these five factors and it we were then able to extend it. And then we had in 2016, there were more cities. And then actually since COVID, it has exploded in all over the world where people want to understand the history of their own city. 00:28:10:16 - 00:28:46:22 Speaker 2 And one could ask you why. Look at history when you're interested in the future, right? Because most people just think, okay, history is all things is something in the past. So, you know, let's not look back good looks. Let's look forward. Now, as it turns out, I think that this project demonstrates, if you understand cycling history over 100 years, you understand why some cities became a cycling cities and others did not for the reason that I just explained with these five factors. 00:28:46:23 - 00:29:29:04 Speaker 2 So what we do is anyone can really come in to join the project is to look over 150 years of cycling through these five factors in the particular city and by having this very rigorous way of comparing. I can tell you I that and everybody always tells me, Oh, we don't have a cycling history. You know, there are no there are no sources or, you know, there is for example, Johannesburg turned out to have a huge, rich history of cycling. 00:29:29:04 - 00:30:09:09 Speaker 2 And now India might be a very different case because you have cycling everywhere. So but, you know, there there still, I think the other question, sort of the elephant in the room is we're now in Africa where we're working with historians, urban planners, policymakers together in 15 different African cities. And there the issue is, of course, between not just what we call in tradition or cycling, but motor biking. 00:30:09:09 - 00:30:15:06 Speaker 2 I know we're all interested in sustainability, right? Sustainable mobility. But we have to ask, 00:30:15:06 - 00:30:16:19 Speaker 2 what do we do with motorbikes 00:30:16:19 - 00:30:17:17 Speaker 2 in terms of 00:30:17:17 - 00:30:24:17 Speaker 2 CO2 to emissions? It's not sustainable, right? 00:30:24:19 - 00:30:40:02 Speaker 2 In China, they have opted out in some cases to electrify. Well, that that is really, I think, a really good measure. But we have to understand 00:30:40:02 - 00:30:48:09 Speaker 2 what motor biking means for a lot of people. It means, you know, they might be forced because 00:30:48:09 - 00:30:53:23 Speaker 2 to get a motorbike, because they depend on a livelihood, that because they have to cover big distances. 00:30:53:23 - 00:30:58:22 Speaker 2 But for a lot of them, it means, okay, 00:30:58:22 - 00:31:00:11 Speaker 2 I cannot afford a car, 00:31:00:11 - 00:31:05:13 Speaker 2 I want to go faster. So I get a motor bicycle. But it is actually on my way of becoming 00:31:05:13 - 00:31:08:15 Speaker 2 an automobile to becoming a car 00:31:08:15 - 00:31:09:01 Speaker 2 owner. 00:31:09:04 - 00:31:09:23 Speaker 1 Owner. 00:31:09:23 - 00:31:10:15 Speaker 2 if you 00:31:10:15 - 00:31:23:14 Speaker 2 were a traditional cyclist and you didn't take a motorbike or an e-bike, even it becomes less sustainable. Right. In terms of the resources, if you were a car driver 00:31:23:14 - 00:31:28:12 Speaker 2 and you scale down to an e-bike, then it becomes a very sustainable 00:31:28:12 - 00:31:43:10 Speaker 2 measure. So our discussions about what is sustainable mobility needs to be extended to understanding where people are coming from, where they going to when they are on a e-bike or on a bicycle. 00:31:43:10 - 00:32:14:05 Speaker 2 And if they're on a bicycle, but then travel to to the United States for a weekend, you know, to see a concert in New York, then, you know, you might it might be green on the street somewhere, but not so sustainable. So, you know, so we need to really understand the complexity of it. And sustainability does not only mean an ecological sustainable, but also socially sustainable and economically sustainable. 00:32:14:05 - 00:32:25:15 Speaker 1 What attracted me to what you were saying was the choice of modes becomes a very useful factor for people to have. Right. You should be able to. 00:32:25:20 - 00:32:49:01 Speaker 1 It's also called poverty of choice. I think in general planning terms that you can have many modes and you should be able to choose and the guiding factor should be in this day and age. If. Correct me if I'm wrong, should be about the overall footprint of sustainability that you can. How how do you lower that footprint? Lawyer You go from where you are should be sufficient. 00:32:49:03 - 00:33:12:03 Speaker 1 And if it means from a car to a train and from a train, you move to an electric vehicle and then from an electric vehicle you can motorcycle. Then you if you have these choices, you can make multiple trips. And this is what we have been doing. But what's interesting is in order to drive home the message of saying that there is this thing called a bicycle, which is practically zero. 00:33:12:05 - 00:33:34:22 Speaker 1 And and then there is this whole range we have in India, just like you said about China, we have modes from a two wheelers to two and a half to three wheels for, you know, we have motorbikes as well. We have electric motorbikes have three wheels on autorickshaws, which you all make noise trucks. And then we have cars of different shapes and sizes, and then we have a bus. 00:33:34:22 - 00:34:15:11 Speaker 1 We have. So there is a huge range. And for most people, unlike in European or American countries, it's either a car or a bicycle. It's it's slightly more binary. And here there is a huge range and the upgrades can seem like a you know, it's fascinating to see how India makes its choices in all of this. The bicycle stands as an identity for the lowest footprint, and that is the reason we want to try and see is that if we can make the lowest footprint stick, the choice up to the air footprints can be made by people and we can cater to that. 00:34:15:11 - 00:34:38:13 Speaker 1 And and and things like fighting traffic are rhetorics. I think we need in order for us to win people away from the highest footprint, because the momentum towards the car is strong. It's human nature. The car is strong. We need to have people make conscious choices on a daily basis. And that's why it was interesting for me to find out. 00:34:38:13 - 00:35:03:07 Speaker 1 From your cycling cities projects, have you found cultural influences on these choices? Do you think these cultural influences are different in the Global South Europe? And I think from what I see in the map, you said just before the podcast, there's a lot of work being done in Africa. I don't know how far away you are on that and your studies in Europe. 00:35:03:09 - 00:35:25:10 Speaker 1 What do you find as you say, that a cultural impact and on the other side, can cycling and the push for cycling influence culture? Little But are you talking about how the Netherlands had a culture? Because it was enlightening to me because most people know the Dutch culture only from the 1970s, the kingdom for the moment and the oil embargo and then everything else. 00:35:25:12 - 00:35:46:15 Speaker 1 It's almost as if the Dutch cycling culture starts from the 1970s for everybody in the world, and now you come into the 1920s, there were efforts and we nobody talks about that. That's why your history of going back hundred years is helpful for people, I think, because nobody tells you. Bjorn, before 1970 about the Netherlands. Yeah, yeah. So this question of culture, I want you to what have you observed? 00:35:46:15 - 00:35:50:01 Speaker 1 Is is can cycling influence culture? Has culture influence cycling? 00:35:50:01 - 00:36:04:05 Speaker 2 Absolutely. I'm a strong believer that if we focus only on infrastructure as the way forward to get it, cycling and practice. No. And I know a lot of policy is focused on that. 00:36:04:05 - 00:36:35:11 Speaker 2 There's a reason why we always focus on the seventies because the social movement didn't know to to get that conversation about what is sustainable and how should we create a public policy was actually instrumental since the 1970s because the social movement in Annapolis was able to keep that conversation up to the present and have politicians involved in that. 00:36:35:13 - 00:37:23:11 Speaker 2 So you need absolutely a broad based the social shows social movement and a representation that goes with an image and an aspiration that goes with it. Otherwise, it's not going to it's not going to happen. And I see that worries me a great deal that we see a lot of people mean. Well, I invest lot a lot of money and effort into an in bicycle path often that leads from somewhere to nowhere or is not maintained and you need to have communities to support it. 00:37:23:11 - 00:37:39:10 Speaker 2 You have to invest in understanding why people move and how people move in the city. So that's why I'm saying as a historian, it is really complicated. You have to get these five factors together and then it works. 00:37:39:10 - 00:37:50:18 Speaker 2 what you were saying about about about India is also true for Africa. This enormous range of two wheelers or three wheelers, you know, before you get to the four wheelers. 00:37:50:19 - 00:37:51:11 Speaker 2 Right. 00:37:51:11 - 00:38:23:02 Speaker 2 the bicycle and the tricycle, of course, and the tuk-tuk a very much shall is a very sustainable means if it's electrified. I would say. And we also make sure that our our our power plants are creating energy in a sustainable fashion. Right. That's part of the chain, because it's not only the CO2 emission, but it's also land use. 00:38:23:04 - 00:38:50:19 Speaker 2 I mean, cars are actually unsustainable in our cities and urbanization is de force of the 21st century. So we and actually the car industry knows this. Yeah, they have been particularly since 2008 with the economic crisis when Obama was saving the car industry in the United States and said, okay, you have to make some changes and be more sustainable. 00:38:51:01 - 00:39:02:01 Speaker 2 They started conversations, think tanks and they understand stand very much that cars do not have a place in cities. 00:39:02:01 - 00:39:06:15 Speaker 2 Urban mobility does not make sense for our cities. 00:39:06:15 - 00:39:15:01 Speaker 2 the only people we need to understand it are policymakers and residents. You know, because the car industry knows this already. 00:39:15:01 - 00:39:21:21 Speaker 2 Why are you why do we think that they have invested in car sharing things? 00:39:21:21 - 00:39:54:06 Speaker 2 Because they want to stay in business? Why do we think that Elon Musk and others have talked about self-driving cars? Because they realize that the younger generations are getting their driving license later and they wanted to create the kind of experience that would be similar to like a smartphone because the younger generation, their research shows it's more interested in getting a smartphone than a car. 00:39:54:08 - 00:39:55:02 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:39:55:04 - 00:40:05:20 Speaker 2 So, so the future is really up to us to craft it in a way that of something. The secret that the car industry already knows. 00:40:05:20 - 00:40:17:18 Speaker 1 And I have been just the for the World Bicycle Day I was in conversation with a few of my cycling commuter colleagues. This is what came up the observe. My son for example, has 00:40:17:18 - 00:40:24:15 Speaker 1 turned down an offer to go and get a license because he would much rather hail an auto or just walk it or cycle it around. 00:40:24:17 - 00:41:01:21 Speaker 1 There are far more people in the younger generation surprisingly, who would much rather not fall for this lobby. And you're right, they have they would much rather ride the car in the mobile phone than at that. In real life, this is surprising. But the more important thing that I the I wanted to come back to is the society has flavors that are different people from the older generation who still think we have not made it if we don't have this and then if you don't have automobile industry, slowly the realization is coming. 00:41:01:23 - 00:41:33:21 Speaker 1 The governments on the other hand, we are not as gifted as Europe or the Netherlands to have government representatives and authorities to be as forthcoming. They still live under the impression that the people won't like it. If we give you less car lanes and give you more cycling parts and it is true there have been lysis in the city, big cities which have been demanding more car lanes and more. 00:41:33:23 - 00:41:40:00 Speaker 1 You'll be surprised to know that India has only 8% penetration of motor cars 00:41:40:00 - 00:41:58:20 Speaker 1 and the unreasonable amount of space in the cities is being dedicated to a disproportionately small number of motor vehicles. And I'm sure people have been tackling. And it's interesting to note that the government needs to make up its mind and seek directions, which is what you're saying, and provide people more choice. 00:41:58:20 - 00:42:18:12 Speaker 1 But have you any more secrets to for me to convince? I'm not necessarily convinced. Provide people the opportunity to understand how they should stand up and voice this. What one more secret from your stable. 00:42:18:12 - 00:42:46:06 Speaker 2 Well, I mean, one more secret is that the Netherlands is not paradise. We have been fighting since the 1970s. When I grew up, there were cars everywhere in the city. You could not move around and it's only through hard work, constant pressure that you change it and it and the figure that you you are assigning to me about the 8% is is very much where the Netherlands was, too. 00:42:46:11 - 00:43:21:17 Speaker 2 So in the Netherlands in the 1920s, when there were only 2% people who had cars, they were demanding roads and cyclists through their taxes were actually contributing to the roads that were meant for cars. So that that lobby of the elites is enormous. And I can say the secret is it's hard work to change and we are all in it for the long haul. 00:43:21:17 - 00:44:06:17 Speaker 2 And that's why I started it, to say our research shows there is not one secret, there is not a silver, a silver bullet. And I know that is very hard to hear because, you know, everybody wants to know, okay, give me this one key. And we have to change future. No, it has to come together. But as I think on that to to end on a on a more optimistic note is that I think the future is really the younger generation who is not as interested and impressed by fancy cars and I think that that is the future and and and also to truly appreciate. 00:44:06:17 - 00:44:30:16 Speaker 2 And then I'm saying that as a historian, I'm just so thrilled with a an innovation of the bicycle. It is so sturdy. It's just two wheels. What you can do with the bicycle. You know, you you can travel together and talk and you can meet people. You can you can stop, you can commute, you can enjoy the landscape. 00:44:30:16 - 00:44:56:20 Speaker 2 You can transport almost everything on a bicycle and be sustainable. It is just a fantastic innovation that is proven itself. So I'm really passionate about that. And and and the key is to embrace it and to see it as just as and more valuable than a car that just as for four wheels but 00:44:56:20 - 00:45:01:22 Speaker 2 takes so much space and has so many more problems and is not as affordable. 00:45:01:22 - 00:45:05:13 Speaker 2 So, you know, to come back to 00:45:05:13 - 00:45:07:22 Speaker 2 to this map, I'm very 00:45:07:22 - 00:45:29:21 Speaker 2 happy to see that right now we're active in 50 cities in 25 countries, and it's growing on a daily basis. So anyone listening, if you want to start the history of of your city and to make to understand how to move to the future, then join us. 00:45:29:21 - 00:45:46:08 Speaker 1 you also started technology and you understand that and I can't let you go without asking a question on that. A lot of the future generation and not just that the innovations that are happening at breakneck with technology, especially with computers and other stuff, 00:45:46:08 - 00:45:50:12 Speaker 1 the bicycle doesn't need them for now because it's a very simple instrument. 00:45:50:12 - 00:46:00:06 Speaker 1 Like I said, it has all the technologies required to take you from point A to point B, but is there anything in technology that can help us 00:46:00:06 - 00:46:19:00 Speaker 1 forward the cause of cycling? What have you seen in your research and studies or observations across the globe, and what role has modern technology of computing and other things played in this? 00:46:19:00 - 00:46:20:19 Speaker 1 Is there anything that you have? 00:46:20:20 - 00:46:59:02 Speaker 2 Absolutely. I mean, if you look at it, it's the physicality of of a bicycle. I think there's not much you can improve. And I and I really don't believe in all these fancy bike schools that have all kind of I think that's sort of the wrong direction. But what I do believe is that we need to integrate the bicycle in the city, you know, in the information communication technologies for a pathfinding for G.I.S, if you try to route with your bicycle through a city and as a pedestrian, you get all easy to problem. 00:46:59:05 - 00:47:25:03 Speaker 2 I mean, I don't know if you have tried to, you know, bike around with your with your smartphone and find your way. It's always wrong. Google always answers wrong. So there is that aspect. I think I really do believe there is a lot to gain. Also to integrate version of apps that integrate cycling with public transit and walking. 00:47:25:03 - 00:47:36:14 Speaker 2 So you can see how to get from A to B this the fastest around or the nicest route and get all the time schedules into one place. 00:47:36:14 - 00:47:48:16 Speaker 2 So I think it's more in the combination of a proven technology with the possibility of actually that that's where the future is. And then finally, 00:47:48:16 - 00:47:54:10 Speaker 2 a bike sharing. I think a lot of the bike sharing is misdirected. 00:47:54:12 - 00:48:17:17 Speaker 2 It's mostly for tourist in places where they don't matter and you need to have bicycle sharing where people live and where people work and where they move. So train stations, bus stations makes a lot of sense to integrate it in the overall infrastructure. That is where the future of cycling really is. 00:48:17:17 - 00:48:52:22 Speaker 1 This has been an extremely enlightening conversation. Speaking with you, we have learned a lot of things that we didn't know before it, what it says that it pays to know more history so that you can trace patterns back and understand the journey that people have taken and how it might affect the future, because it's a projection into the future with variables of new generations and new attitudes coming in, new influences coming in, adjusting for that. 00:48:53:01 - 00:49:27:18 Speaker 1 It's predominantly a similar trajectory going forward and not going to be radically different. Like I said, for me, the Dutch history only began in 1970, but I now know that if you draw the line back on the graph, it does have roots in proactive public policy and public administration and things like that. And I am very afraid now to trace our history back in order to find that if that. 00:49:27:20 - 00:49:50:07 Speaker 1 Okay, well, that's what my fear is. If if the public administration is so poor Now and I trace it back and find that it has always been poor, I don't want to extend that into the future. But like you said, we have to look at many other factors. But thank you very much for coming on the show and explaining these factors. 00:49:50:07 - 00:50:00:07 Speaker 1 I'm looking forward to having more Indian cities in your cycling city study and I'd like to get in touch with you to see how we can enable that going. 00:50:00:08 - 00:50:12:00 Speaker 2 I would love to meet any researchers out there who want to join. And so by all means, we need India badly in this project. 00:50:12:02 - 00:50:29:07 Speaker 1 All right, so I'll put a link to your website in the show notes. And this is a call out to researchers and urban planners who are interested in putting your city on the cycling cities map to please click on the link and apply so she can reach out to you and see how the collaboration can be made possible. 00:50:29:09 - 00:50:52:08 Speaker 1 Don't be afraid of tracing your history. It may or may not be bad, but we can change the future. And with that, here's a call out for everyone to like, subscribe and share. Again, we'll try and bring more interesting guests to you and try and demystify urban form and structure. And today's word of the day is choice. More, mode choice.