00:00:03:04 - 00:00:26:14 Speaker 1 Okay, we are on. Let's go. Welcome to another episode of the OoruLabs podcast from Bengaluru. Ever complained how bad our cities are, How bad your commute is, you'll get to hear from a lot of people who are working to solve these problems in their own way. This is your weekly soapbox for Urban Sustainability. So do not forget to like, subscribe and share these videos. 00:00:26:16 - 00:00:34:03 Speaker 1 Check out the entire podcast library and profiles of the guests on the website. Podcast.oorulabs.com. Im your host Sathya 00:00:34:03 - 00:00:46:19 Speaker 1 We are speaking today with Dr. Anjali Karol Mohan. She's a partner at Integrated Design, where she leads urban planning projects. Her professional experience over the last three decades strategy, development, institutional and policy frameworks, 00:00:46:19 - 00:00:48:15 Speaker 1 urban planning and management and 00:00:48:15 - 00:00:50:17 Speaker 1 information communication technologies and development. 00:00:50:17 - 00:00:56:13 Speaker 1 She also teaches at the Center for Public Policy at National Law School. Bengaluru, 00:00:56:13 - 00:01:05:20 Speaker 1 Kautilya School of Public Policy Hyderabad and Takshashila Institutions. She's a member of the Copenhagen based International Federation for Housing and Planning, 00:01:05:20 - 00:01:10:14 Speaker 1 and she served on several task forces and expert committees. Most recently, she was the member of the 00:01:10:14 - 00:01:15:14 Speaker 1 expert panel to the chief minister of Andhra Pradesh, advising on a statewide comprehensive urban development strategy. 00:01:15:14 - 00:01:17:18 Speaker 1 And I know she has been working on the 00:01:17:18 - 00:01:20:22 Speaker 1 Bengaluru masterplan of 2031, which 00:01:20:22 - 00:01:22:12 Speaker 1 will be the topic of discussion 00:01:22:12 - 00:01:23:23 Speaker 1 today. Welcome to the show, Anjali. 00:01:23:23 - 00:01:26:12 Speaker 2 Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. 00:01:26:12 - 00:01:30:00 Speaker 1 just before we hit the questions, I wanted to just set the 00:01:30:00 - 00:01:32:12 Speaker 1 context to the viewers so those who don't know 00:01:32:12 - 00:01:40:00 Speaker 1 a master plan for a city or a region is a long term planning document. Typically 15 years that provides a conceptual layout 00:01:40:00 - 00:01:43:02 Speaker 1 guide the future growth and development of the city or region. 00:01:43:02 - 00:01:44:07 Speaker 1 For Bengaluru, 00:01:44:07 - 00:01:48:17 Speaker 1 the order to prepare a master plan for 2031, which issued in 2017. 00:01:48:17 - 00:01:52:22 Speaker 1 And the reason is there was a plan master plan before that, which ended in 2015, 00:01:52:22 - 00:01:54:12 Speaker 1 and that's the one that was currently 00:01:54:12 - 00:01:55:14 Speaker 1 trying to be revised 00:01:55:14 - 00:02:06:00 Speaker 1 and we are in 2023 now. There was a PIL left of the master plan was prepared and Anjali was a part of preparing that masterplan, along with many other agencies like Royal Haskonings and many others. 00:02:06:00 - 00:02:14:20 Speaker 1 This was commissioned by the Bengaluru Development Authority. The idea was to revise the master plan of 2015, bring another one for 2031, because it's like a 15 year time frame. 00:02:14:20 - 00:02:16:19 Speaker 1 But after the PIL it got shelved, 00:02:16:19 - 00:02:18:19 Speaker 1 And now there are talks 00:02:18:19 - 00:02:19:02 Speaker 1 of 00:02:19:02 - 00:02:23:05 Speaker 1 a 2041 master plan. But a lot of work has gone into the 00:02:23:05 - 00:02:24:02 Speaker 1 already. 00:02:24:02 - 00:02:27:01 Speaker 1 But the most startling fact in all of these things 00:02:27:01 - 00:02:35:16 Speaker 1 is reportedly only 14% of whatever was mentioned in the 2015 plan was implemented, not seen on the ground. 00:02:35:18 - 00:02:40:22 Speaker 1 Of course, there are many ways of calculating this. It could be 14 being it could be 15, but a very small percentage 00:02:40:22 - 00:02:57:23 Speaker 1 of whatever was specified in the master plan actually got implemented. Which leads me to the question, Anjali is with such low rates of adoption of whatever we say, whatever you put in the master plan, do you think master plans really are useful anymore 00:02:57:23 - 00:03:00:02 Speaker 1 and are they an outdated concept? 00:03:00:02 - 00:03:01:03 Speaker 1 What do you say? 00:03:01:03 - 00:03:40:20 Speaker 2 to begin with, I, I will use the word master plan. So in in the absence of any other word that we have for an open plan. So what we need is a will to answer your question directly in one lane. No. Three, The master plan is very much needed. I don't think that there is any any doubt in my mind that an urban planner, the city plan is an outdated concept, that it's a it's a concept that is not required or tool that is not required. 00:03:40:20 - 00:04:01:10 Speaker 2 It's very much needed. Having said that, there is a problem in the way of a master plan that conceived the process. We followed the way these are visualized, the way these visualize the city. So there is a problem in the process itself, and then by extension, what the process produces. So both there is a there is a problem. 00:04:01:10 - 00:04:32:05 Speaker 2 And to say that a master plan is not needed is like almost throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So we do need the master plan for sure, or an urban plan. In the case of Karnataka, actually, we have been a little regressive. Till 1995. The plan was always referred to as a comprehensive development plan. And Karnataka across the country was lauded for having that that part of its statutory framework, having moved from calling it a master plan to a comprehensive development plan. 00:04:32:07 - 00:05:02:14 Speaker 2 And somewhere in the late nineties, we don't know what happened. I think the town Planning Department took this call to go back to calling it a master plan. There was a nationwide debate on whether there is a lot that a name holds, like the word masterplan itself. Like, why should you call it the master plan? It is something that has to integrate and converge on various development initiatives, guide and steer them, and therefore, let's call it a comprehensive development plan. 00:05:02:14 - 00:05:27:13 Speaker 2 We have taken that that Karnataka had taken the lead on that, but then unfortunately, we lost out on that. So so I am talking about the whole idea of the name Comprehensive Development Plan. Is that what we need is something that actually reflects the philosophy of comprehensive development for the larger city, and that's what the masterplan is required to do. 00:05:27:15 - 00:05:57:08 Speaker 2 And clearly, the process we follow and what it produces is largely embedded in a very colonial set up and a largely a colonial mindset. And we have taken forever to actually change it. What is required is a change in the structural frameworks which allow the plan to look beyond the the land use plan. So as you know, the plan is actually a land use plan largely a land use plan trade. 00:05:57:10 - 00:06:20:19 Speaker 2 And that is what was largely a comes from a very colonial way of thinking where land is looked upon as an asset and you want to actually monetize on land and create revenue through land. And that's where the visibility of that use of land and land itself was very critical and that's what we continue to do with. But that I think needs the overhaul. 00:06:20:19 - 00:06:42:04 Speaker 2 And there is no doubt about it that the process itself and the way we actually conceptualize cities is the way we look at cities. That is definitely the need for the overhaul. So basically, again, coming back to your question, we do need a plan and right now you can see it. We have a very outdated plan while we see that as a revised master plan for 2015. 00:06:42:04 - 00:07:13:22 Speaker 2 Don't forget that the database or the land deals that it is operating on, the understanding of the land use is something that was recorded in 2007. So we are almost 14 years more than 14 years from that database. And this is really obnoxious for the city, which is growing even as we speak. So there is just so much dynamism in the cities, especially cities of the global South, which are just growing leaps and bounds. 00:07:13:22 - 00:07:29:14 Speaker 2 And to go in the light on the on the database or the platform that was that was actually recorded in 2007. So we definitely need an urban plan or a city plan, but also an overall, overhauled process of the same. 00:07:29:16 - 00:07:45:16 Speaker 1 Sort of let's deep down into some of those things. One is the comprehensive development plan versus master plan. Why is that? You also said that the development plan is a part of the master plan. So are these two different things, are they the same thing significant? What is the advantage of using the word comprehensive development plan? 00:07:45:18 - 00:08:20:15 Speaker 2 So so while we did not take the whole Karnataka was not able to take it to fruition, but the idea at the national level at that time was that instead of calling the city plan a master plan, let's call it a comprehensive development plan. So before we are in 2015, the official terminology for the plan that we had at that time was CDP 1995, which got revised to become RMP 2015 revised master plan of 2015, which is to be revised to become RMP 2031. 00:08:20:17 - 00:08:43:14 Speaker 2 So the plan is the same, but the idea was also to bring in, if you call it the comprehensive Development plan, then let's look at what other aspects of development need to be integrated or woven into, say, the spatial aspects of the city and how do we visualize these together. To be able to steer the growth of the city. 00:08:43:14 - 00:09:01:02 Speaker 2 That was the idea, but we didn't really move too much ahead on it. And we went back to calling it a master plan and also the legal frameworks or the statutory frameworks, which is largely the Karnataka Town and Country Planning Act. Not much has changed over there. It continues to define the master plan as a land use plan. 00:09:01:16 - 00:09:06:20 Speaker 1 So the idea was that the development would bring some other angles beyond land use, the. 00:09:06:20 - 00:09:35:23 Speaker 2 Larger understanding, a larger perception of what the city needs, what the city needs to, how the growth of the city needs to be steered. And if you were to ask me, the idea at the point was to actually move beyond the spatial understanding of the land use, which is largely embedded in of the spatial understanding of the land use to also a socioeconomic understanding of the length of the city, etc.. 00:09:36:01 - 00:10:05:08 Speaker 2 So that was what was what we were trying to do. And 30 years hence we are saying the same thing. So we are constantly pushing with government saying that let's move beyond the spatial plan to also understand the socio economic aspects, the socio cultural, the socio political. All these are very important frames for the city and unless we don't start to think between within these frames, we are continuing to do a disservice to the city in the way the master plans are conceived. 00:10:05:10 - 00:10:22:19 Speaker 1 So do you think in order for us to change the official terminology, to CDP the Karnataka Town and Country Planning Act should also mention that you're mandatorily required to bring in not just a master plan, but a comprehensive development plan or something like that, or the legal provisions or enough. Just call it CDP and still do it. 00:10:23:00 - 00:10:57:20 Speaker 2 There are the legal provisions, call it the master plan, what it needs to be, and I believe the name holds a lot of it actually direct you. Right. So it may be good to call it a city plan, a comprehensive development plan, and urban and regional plan. You can call it anything. But what it also needs to do is to move to define it, not just a mere land use plan, but to also go beyond that and seek the socioeconomic aspects that need to be brought in and then outline what are some of these aspects that the plan needs to cover. 00:10:57:22 - 00:11:05:06 Speaker 2 Having said that, again, the other problem with the entire plan is that it is prepared at a distance which is too far from the ground. 00:11:05:06 - 00:11:19:09 Speaker 2 So it is a very centralized way of looking. It's prepared by one authority, the Bangalore Development Authority, which conceives the city from the top. But basically it's a top down plan where we are sitting and looking at the city from the top. 00:11:19:10 - 00:11:46:05 Speaker 2 What we are not trying to understand is how the city, what is the city that exists on the ground. And there's a huge gap between what is actually the city that they imagine and plan for in the in the in the master plan is very different from the city that exists on the ground. And that's what you started off by saying that only a 14% implementation, that number could be 24, that number could be 35. 00:11:46:09 - 00:12:06:09 Speaker 2 Nobody knows actually, because we barely do an assessment of the implementation of the plans. But what exists on the ground is not what the master plan has envisaged. So there's a gap between the plan city and the every day city and that's because we are not able to. We are only doing one part of the process, which is a top down understanding, which is very much needed. 00:12:06:10 - 00:12:15:18 Speaker 2 I'm not saying it's not needed. It is needed. But what we are missing out is the bottom up understanding of the city, and that's where the masterplan process in itself is flawed. 00:12:15:18 - 00:12:36:08 Speaker 1 It's a very good weaving in of three questions I wanted to ask. One is I want you to elaborate on the not top down approach, which gives us kind of understanding of how it should be done. The second one was the low implementation rates, which you believe is a part of the because of the process being flawed. So these are two questions in one. 00:12:36:08 - 00:12:38:02 Speaker 1 Why don't we take a stab at trying to 00:12:38:02 - 00:12:53:07 Speaker 1 deep dive into this process itself and say, what is the flaw in this top down process? Why is it is it difficult to flip that around and do a bottom up on the other hand? And what does bottom up really mean? Who else is supposed to feed into this? 00:12:53:07 - 00:12:57:14 Speaker 1 Let's do the whole deep dive now and tell the people what could be done better 00:12:57:14 - 00:12:58:10 Speaker 1 okay 00:12:58:12 - 00:13:20:21 Speaker 2 So when you say there is a top down approach to planning the city, this is largely by the BDA. Please keep in mind that the city is not just about land and its uses. That's what the masterplan of the BDA puts in place. The city is also, for example, about water provision. It's about sanitation. It's about solid waste management. 00:13:20:21 - 00:13:54:06 Speaker 2 It's about roads. And that's the physical infrastructure. It's a lot about social infrastructure, like schools, hospitals, open spaces. Then there are a lot more other tangible, small cultural spaces that the city may require, that a neighborhood may require walking spaces, gathering spaces. City is all about these things, right? And it's for everybody. Now, forget that the the involvement of the people in the city is there right now. 00:13:54:08 - 00:14:22:23 Speaker 2 The the BDA is not even, for example, interfacing with a lot of it's or the government is not even interfacing with a lot of itself. So the BWSSB is not really involved in the evolution of the masterplan, the PWD or the BBMP, which is the main administering authority, is also not involved in Masterplan. So first there is a gap over there and that's a horizontal gap between the arms of the state itself. 00:14:23:01 - 00:14:46:22 Speaker 2 Then there are stakeholders who are. Then there is the stakeholder and a knowledge system that exists on the ground, the sub-city level. You make call it your ward level within the planning language. It's called the planning district, but that's a very large unit. So you need to break it down to the ward or maybe even the sub-ward. Now, that is a reading of the city that is completely missing at this point in time. 00:14:47:00 - 00:15:15:03 Speaker 2 So because the BDA can't do that, it doesn't have extension arms which are sitting in, for example, the wards. The BBMP has some sort of a presence in the wards. But the Bbmp is not plan making agency. It's only the plan implementation agency. So therefore the the think is that we are just operating at that level, which is too much at above the surface. 00:15:15:05 - 00:15:49:15 Speaker 2 If we take the city as the surface that this is above the surface. And while that view may be important, but it's limited. Now how do we actually provision planning at the sub city level? That's what the 74th constitutional Amendment does. What it says is that the urban and regional planning as a function, which is a state function, needs to be devolved to municipality, and the municipality should prepare a plan for its jurisdiction, a spatial plan, a socioeconomic plan for its jurisdiction through its ward committees. 00:15:49:21 - 00:15:53:08 Speaker 2 So what we need is that's why we say a ward level plan. 00:15:53:08 - 00:16:14:11 Speaker 2 So a ward level plan has to be prepared. And this if you prepare 100 plans, then the BBMP is the agency which will look at these 100 plans and iron out all the differences, what its jurisdictions. So that's where the city plan will fall in place. And once the BBMP has done it, then for instance, Magadi needs to do it and Anekal needs to do it. 00:16:14:11 - 00:16:36:22 Speaker 2 And that needs to come up for the travel up further. And that's where the regional planning should come in place. So for Bangalore we have a region of 8000 square kilometers with about 11 municipalities. So each of these municipalities should prepare its plan and then the region should then iron out those differences, the overlaps, the gaps, all that should be done. 00:16:37:00 - 00:17:01:04 Speaker 2 That's one process that is envisaged in the 74th Constitution Amendment Act. The other process that so that's the bottom up process. Now, if you will see then what is, for example, the BMRDA or the MPC Metropolitan Planning Committee supposed to do. It's supposed to give us a framework within which these plans have to be prepared 00:17:01:04 - 00:17:22:07 Speaker 1 So before we jump in, I want to explain a few of these things, and maybe you are the best person to explain this. The masterplan is so the 74th Amendment tells the city, which is the bbmp in our case in the city, the city corporation to do a plan. Or it says you need to construct it. So help me. 00:17:22:07 - 00:17:47:02 Speaker 1 It's been the layers. And this there is the bbmp. Well, there is the Bangalore development that bbmp, which is the local corporation, is not doing the masterplan. The Bangalore Development Authority is doing the masterplan. But that's for a separate region. Yes. And then we have these 11 municipal municipalities or town municipal corporations which also participate in the masterplan, or do they participate in something else? 00:17:47:04 - 00:17:53:08 Speaker 1 And there is this 8000 square kilometers, because I know BDA’s jurisdiction is around 00:17:53:08 - 00:18:08:21 Speaker 1 1080, 1000, approximately 1,200 square kilometers. Then there's the Bangalore metropolitan region, which is 1600, 1800. And then there is the Bangalore Metropolitan Regional Development Authority region, which is 8000 square kilometers in Bbmp itself is around 730 plus. 00:18:08:23 - 00:18:09:14 Speaker 2 Okay. 00:18:09:16 - 00:18:15:02 Speaker 1 Let me just ask you all, how can you piece this together for our audience so that they understand when we say the next. 00:18:15:02 - 00:18:44:05 Speaker 2 So let's start from the largest region. So we have. Okay, Let me start from the lowest one, which is your BBMP, it's a municipal area, which was jurisdiction 700 odd square kilometers. Let's say 800 square kilometers. And Bangalore is also, if you're able to imagine it, it's a concentric city. So the first circle, the innermost circle is 800 square kilometers. 00:18:44:07 - 00:19:15:08 Speaker 2 Okay. Then what we have in the Indian context is what we call the local plan to give you LP. That is the jurisdiction of the BDA, and that's purely a planning jurisdiction, which is this 1100 or 1000 odd square kilometers. Let's say it's about 1100 odd square kilometers. This is just the extension of. So that's the second concentric ring, which is very close to the first one, 800 and thousand 100. 00:19:15:09 - 00:19:40:13 Speaker 2 And then you have the third. The area is the 8000 square kilometers, which is your Bangalore metropolitan region. So 8000 is the Bangalore metropolitan region. 1100 is a metropolitan area and 800 is the Bangalore Municipal Corporation. So we have three jurisdictions. The first one is what the planning agency for that is the BMR, 00:19:40:13 - 00:19:43:07 Speaker 2 Bangalore Metropolitan Region Development Authority. 00:19:43:09 - 00:20:17:14 Speaker 2 And Bangalore is again one of the first few cities in the country which actually defined the region for itself. And it's a very well defined region and a very well constituted act of the which the plan has to be prepared, which is your BMR plan. Then next is the Bangalore Metropolitan area, which the BDA is supposed to prepare a plan for that, which includes the 800 square kilometers and then is the bbmp, which is only administering that and not preparing the plan for the. 00:20:17:16 - 00:21:01:08 Speaker 2 So bbmp is the elected government media and be smart about parastatals. And what the Constitution says is that we have to do away with the status quo. So the bbmp becomes because it is an elected government, it becomes should be the plan making agency so that there is a level of accountability for the plan that gets prepared and for the plan that gets implemented so that for the municipal level and if within the 8000 square kilometers we have 11 or 12 municipalities, each of them is an autonomous unit of governance, which is supposed to look after its own planning and its implementation. 00:21:01:10 - 00:21:29:12 Speaker 2 And bringing them together in the region is the job of the Bangalore Metropolitan Nation Development Authority. Now, what the constitutional amendment said was that let for the larger metropolitan areas where a lot of your regional infrastructure becomes very critical. Roads are not restricted to a municipal boundary. They extend a lot outside them and move on from your ecological zones to the current context. 00:21:29:12 - 00:22:14:21 Speaker 2 The river doesn't know rural and urban boundaries. It just floats your forests. All these are because they are beyond administrative boundaries. You need some sort of integration. And how do you deal with this regional infrastructure? That's where the Metropolitan Planning Committee was recommended as an elected government, not as a state. So while there is a BMRDA but what it says is that at that level you should have metropolitan MPC not at the BDA level at the BMRDA level and MPC, which will be actually doing the coordination for the various municipalities and the panchayats within its jurisdiction. 00:22:14:23 - 00:22:43:00 Speaker 2 So that is the hierarchy that we have. And each of these, whether it's a child or a municipality, is supposed to prepare its own plan through its wards. So we also have panchayats which have their wards, villages which are divided into wards. So other municipalities and the wards either plan making units for each of these jurisdictions. So there is actually an amalgamation of a top down understanding and a bottom up. 00:22:43:02 - 00:22:57:12 Speaker 2 And what your MPC or bbmp is supposed to do is iron out the differences, the overlaps, the gaps between the various plans that emerge from the bottom and actually converge it with the top down framework. 00:22:57:12 - 00:23:03:06 Speaker 1 So has the MPC been set up correctly, you think? Because I think the Secretariat is BMRDA or is it the BDA. 00:23:03:08 - 00:23:12:07 Speaker 2 No, the MPC has been notified that the BDA scale, which doesn't make sense what coordination really between whom. Yeah there is only one agency. 00:23:12:11 - 00:23:14:10 Speaker 1 Yeah maybe Ramnagaram. 00:23:14:12 - 00:23:23:01 Speaker 2 No Ramnagaram is also not part of it. Although that is a part of the region. So it's only BDA, BDA LPA. 00:23:23:03 - 00:23:27:03 Speaker 1 Which is almost like just having BBMP and BDA just doing their own. Yeah. So yeah. 00:23:27:06 - 00:23:46:14 Speaker 2 There is no coordination that it can do at that level. So the MPC should be notified at the BMRDA level the BMRDA should is is and this is all there in the Kasturirangan report and they gave a fantastic recommendation where they said we cannot disband a lot of these authorities and the skills that they have. 00:23:46:14 - 00:24:09:10 Speaker 2 So let's notify the MPC at the BMRDA level have the BMRDAA be the planning wing of the MPC let's have let's have the BDA as the planning wing of the BBMP, let it continue to plan for the jurisdiction of the Bbmp. So let that happen and then let the coordination happen between various. 00:24:09:10 - 00:24:20:10 Speaker 1 So by doing this way, one question that I had was before we go into trying to restructure this to BMRDA does a structure plan is what I've heard. 00:24:20:15 - 00:24:21:07 Speaker 2 Yes. 00:24:21:07 - 00:24:46:20 Speaker 1 But you're saying constitute at the BMRDA level the ability to do comprehensive development plan. Do you think now the structure plan is not sufficient to hold things together and that constituting making the master plan or the CDP comprehensive plan at the BMRDA level is what you feel is required? So the structure plan is not the same as the CDP? 00:24:47:01 - 00:24:47:20 Speaker 2 Yeah, the structure. 00:24:47:22 - 00:24:50:16 Speaker 1 That's why it is your way. Why you would need the CDP. 00:24:50:16 - 00:25:14:06 Speaker 2 One clarification. The CDP is required at the municipal level. Okay, let's get that right. The structure plan or the which is essentially a policy document is required at the regional level. So immediately the structure plan in the CDP one is that one should be a spatial as well as a socio economic plan, and the other is a policy document. 00:25:14:08 - 00:25:38:14 Speaker 2 So at the regional level, you need a structure plan or a policy plan which lays out the policy framework within which your land use and your socioeconomic planning has to happen at the city level. You need the CDP because that will actually bring together the idea of what happens if the city which doesn't is not really true, which doesn't hold true for the region 00:25:38:16 - 00:25:58:10 Speaker 2 So the city will look for its own jurisdiction and start to plan for it. It's based it derives from the principle of subsidiarity when it sees that problems that are faced at a certain level should not go up beyond that level. So the city and its sub jurisdictions of the wards is where a lot of the planning has to happen. 00:25:58:12 - 00:26:21:10 Speaker 2 The long term planning has to happen at the regional level. Right. So the difference between the two is one is a policy document and one is an action plan should be an action plan. One gives the guidance for the policy document, will give the guidance for the action plan. That's that's the essential difference. We need both the plans and what we are. 00:26:21:11 - 00:26:33:02 Speaker 2 Current constitutional amendments is that they should be democratically prepared plans. Right now they are actually lagging within the parastatals 00:26:33:04 - 00:26:41:00 Speaker 1 Right. So what the BMRDA prepare is a structure plan. Technically, it might be something that might have anything is not 00:26:41:00 - 00:26:46:00 Speaker 1 legally valid as a document that can because it's not passed by any legislative body. 00:26:46:00 - 00:26:48:01 Speaker 2 No, no, no. It's a legally valid document. 00:26:48:01 - 00:26:52:14 Speaker 2 It's notified and approved the same way that the master plan gets modified in local 00:26:52:14 - 00:26:53:16 Speaker 1 But it is not 00:26:53:16 - 00:26:56:10 Speaker 1 approved by an elected body of. 00:26:56:10 - 00:27:18:10 Speaker 2 Yes, yes, yes, yes. Right. That's what it is. It is by the urban development department following the same process. But the plan preparation does not happen by an elected body in both the cases. And that's what the 74th constitutional amendments is, that we have to prepare plans democratically. 00:27:18:10 - 00:27:27:05 Speaker 1 But then the master plan is also a legal document because it's made by a government department, the administrative wing of it. Correct. By by the BDA preparing 00:27:27:05 - 00:27:39:23 Speaker 1 It doesn't give itself credence because it's not a democratically elected. It doesn't have a democratically elected component to it. Yes, because Bbmp has the council and this. So ideally Bbmp should be making for Bengaluru, which means if you want to do for 00:27:39:23 - 00:27:51:11 Speaker 1 1200 you said bbmp becomes 1200 or for the 736 you do what you need to do in and then pass it. Yes. BDA doesn't have an equivalent council for approval. 00:27:51:16 - 00:27:52:23 Speaker 2 Exactly. 00:27:53:01 - 00:28:21:06 Speaker 1 But by. So let's say if this task were to be given to the municipal corporation, then that would probably solve these problems instead of giving it to. So let's that brings me to the wider question of the statutory framework that you said. Is this the statutory framework you're looking at for doing this now, this parastatal structure include water, power, energy, sewage and all other utilities, right. 00:28:21:07 - 00:28:27:14 Speaker 1 How do they currently participate in the master planning process? You've been involved in one. The 2031. 00:28:27:16 - 00:28:29:23 Speaker 2 I have been involved in all four of them. 00:28:30:01 - 00:28:40:14 Speaker 1 Oh, that's amazing. I mean, you've done the most masterplans in this country ever. So then you should you should be the person who should tell this. So you should do it and everybody should be listening. So let's hear from you here. 00:28:40:14 - 00:28:45:20 Speaker 1 Why is there a hesitancy either from the utility 00:28:45:20 - 00:28:48:21 Speaker 1 or is the consultative process not appealing enough for them? 00:28:49:02 - 00:28:51:03 Speaker 1 We we're just trying to block them out. 00:28:51:03 - 00:29:13:19 Speaker 2 So my sense of following. Yes, there is. So what I have been arguing for is to say that and this is not just me the Constitution also lays out that the unit of self-governance, that the Bbmp should prepare its own plan. What it can do is get the BDA to prepare a plan for its jurisdiction. But then the BDA should be accountable to the people. 00:29:13:20 - 00:29:37:08 Speaker 2 So that's where the problem lies. The BDA is this high horse which doesn't want to be accountable to the bbmp, but if you look at successful planning, especially in cities of the global south you will find that a lot of these utility companies where cities are working them, they're actually under the municipal bodies, the elected governments. So right now do not have that. 00:29:37:08 - 00:30:00:10 Speaker 2 That's the first problem. These tend to sit a little bit elevated above the bbmp. That's one. Do they all seem to have defined their own jurisdictions or somebody has? And that was brought out by the BBMP Restructuring Committee report to visualize the whole jurisdiction aspect of all the utility companies. And these are just working on very different jurisdictions. 00:30:00:10 - 00:30:28:12 Speaker 2 So where do you expect any type of convergence or comprehension to happen for one jurisdiction? And the third problem is that each one works on its own timeline. So Bbmp will so be it prepares a plan for let's see now. So let me give you an example to be prepared. It's first comprehensive development plan for 1995, 95 CDP, 95 to scope that got revised to 2015. 00:30:28:14 - 00:30:53:08 Speaker 2 Then it has to be revised every 10 years. So then the next plan was for the year 2025. That's what it was supposed to be, because there was a structure plan at the region for 2011 and the next one for 2031. We actually did a lot of lobbying with the government to say, let's coincide the timelines of the plans and make it both for 2031 00:30:53:10 - 00:31:14:04 Speaker 2 that way, because that's the policy framework within which to sit, there would be some sort of coordinated convergence, but they did not notify that plan and now it's gone to 2041. Actually, the structure plan now should also be then revised for the year 2041. But we are constantly going back and forth on these timelines. So there's a problem of timelines. 00:31:14:04 - 00:31:32:19 Speaker 2 There's a problem of jurisdictions that is a problem of how these are being evolved and that's why it is said that the plan is very much needed for the for the city. But we can't throw the baby and the bathwater out together. What we need to do is clear up a lot of these processes. And what I'm saying is nothing new. 00:31:32:21 - 00:31:59:00 Speaker 2 It's been coming through various committees that has come through a lot of us lobbying for these changes, but it hasn't right now. Why is there resistance? To answer your question then, each one of these is a power center and they don't want that for the 2031 plan. We actually got two utility companies together in the BMRDA boardroom to say, let's work together. 00:31:59:00 - 00:32:23:16 Speaker 2 It was very difficult. Each one has its own act Each one has its own mandate. And they say we are going we have it's also a culture. You'll be trained to work within the act, within your mandate, and that's what you do. So that's why we have a problem. I think a starting point to this is to see that let devolve the function of urban and regional planning. 00:32:23:18 - 00:32:31:07 Speaker 2 As it's mentioned at 74, the constitutional amendment act let it go to the municipalities, let the municipalities prepare for their jurisdiction. 00:32:31:07 - 00:32:38:00 Speaker 2 But when I say this to the government, they always tell me that the municipalities don't have the capacities which I dont agree 00:32:38:02 - 00:32:38:14 Speaker 1 I don't think so 00:32:38:14 - 00:32:42:07 Speaker 2 So. Yeah, they have the capacities. You have to let them do it. 00:32:42:09 - 00:32:43:16 Speaker 1 or build the capacity. 00:32:43:17 - 00:32:54:18 Speaker 2 Well, build capacity. Incidentally, even the BDA has been outsourcing its plan. Yeah, right. So it's not that the BDA has the capacity. If you ask me. 00:32:54:20 - 00:32:57:20 Speaker 1 Their capacities lie somewhere else. 00:32:57:22 - 00:33:06:13 Speaker 2 So they are outsourcing the plan. Let the BBMP outsource the plan. If they wanted to do it. let them build the capacity within it, then that's the way to go. 00:33:06:13 - 00:33:21:18 Speaker 1 The question then talking about the acts that each one is empowered to do their own thing, I see this with the transport agencies more than I do with the utilities, or my act allows me to plan and run and operate and everything. Everything 00:33:21:18 - 00:33:27:04 Speaker 1 so the plan, even if you take over the planning function from most of these 00:33:27:04 - 00:33:29:23 Speaker 1 parastatals, which provide utilities and everything and give it 00:33:29:23 - 00:33:36:02 Speaker 1 to I don't no matter what you say it should be, you should take the steering function away from them. 00:33:36:08 - 00:33:56:20 Speaker 1 Will that then be in a better position, That that means you have to amend all the acts or you need a super act which says to do we have that? Do we have Is the MPC empowered enough to say with or BMRDA empowered enough, or do we need to further amend that to say that we have to plan for the parastatals as well? 00:33:56:20 - 00:34:20:22 Speaker 1 The BMLTA for example, tries to do that. So of course there is blowback. No, you can't they cannot be subservient, they cannot be this Well, if the person is steering and operating, he or she is going to skew the decks in their favor, which is not. And considering they all have their own territorial instincts, like you said then, like I've seen, it tends to go in different directions. 00:34:20:22 - 00:34:38:01 Speaker 1 So the water supply company is digging in one part of town. Well, the electricity company has got a budget and plan that year for some of that part of town. No wonder they are not because they say, I plan my plan for me and you plan for you and was planning together saying everybody has to dig here this year. 00:34:38:03 - 00:34:47:19 Speaker 1 Well, right. So how do you envision getting away from the legal provision? So do you and who should now break these barriers and how do we break them 00:34:47:22 - 00:35:19:18 Speaker 2 Okay. So as I said, I think the starting point is to devolve this function. And then it's not that the bbmp to the city is actually being managed and run by multiple agencies, but as you rightly said, each one works independent of the other. So I think a simple thing is to get them together. The BMRDA act is really before it actually came out, before its time, and if you read through the act, it's a fantastic act which gives a lot of provision for coordination at the regional level. 00:35:19:20 - 00:35:45:03 Speaker 2 It's one of the best act that I have read for a while now. And however, because it gives those overarching powers, they have really never modified the rules and regulations of that act. And this, I am saying, has been acknowledged as early as I remember that in the year 2000 I dont want to name the IAS officer but he actually spoke in public saying this is the problem. Why are we not notifying it. 00:35:45:03 - 00:36:05:17 Speaker 2 Let's modify the act and let's give that power or that teeth to the BMRDA to coordinate a lot of these activities within its region. The Bbmp already has. One of the things that we have that I have been also arguing and I said it at the last masterplan, is that once you prepare a city plan, 00:36:05:17 - 00:36:10:05 Speaker 2 you need a budget line for it, we don't have budgets to implement the master plan. 00:36:10:08 - 00:36:21:02 Speaker 2 It's not a budget set on split between various arm of the government and then they implement road to implement water supply. They implement sanitation, but it doesn't speak to the master 00:36:21:02 - 00:36:33:06 Speaker 2 So okay, in the long run, let the government start to think about a budget plan for the plan. And I gave this in a recent conversation with the 00:36:33:08 - 00:37:04:20 Speaker 2 CMDA member secretary in Chennai. I was telling him and he was saying, Yeah, that makes so much sense. I said, You should push for your government to have a budget plan for the master plan. That's the first. If it won't take some time. In the meanwhile, while the plan is being prepared, ask all of utility agencies with the BWSSB or any utilities to prepare the plan for that jurisdiction, for that timeline and amend it to the master plan, Bring it as an annexure to the master plan. 00:37:04:22 - 00:37:32:19 Speaker 2 So in some way, in the process itself, it start speaking to what the master plan that is some conversations happening, that's the second. But then when you're implementing in the short term, lift the budgets for example, the BWSSB budgets go for projects that are largely conceived or are supporting the master plan or the master plan is bringing them in in in tandem with the land use that it's doing with the transport mobility that that's doing. 00:37:32:21 - 00:37:51:12 Speaker 2 But let that budget get into budget line be along those projects. In the process, the BWSSB is welcome to prepare the DPRs to go ahead and do whatever it wants to and use its budget the way it wants to put, except the things in alignment with the larger city vision and the city plan. So that's the way to go about it. 00:37:51:12 - 00:38:24:00 Speaker 2 And if we have to bring this in, you have to have to BWSSB utility companies actually accountable to your elected government sitting in the municipal corporation? And that's how it's been working in most parts of the world. But we have a lot of these different levels that have been created and were created by a lot of bilaterals, and they were created by the World Bank, ADB because they wanted to avoid the messy politics of the land. 00:38:24:00 - 00:38:28:22 Speaker 2 So they created these. But these have become a real problem today. In today's context. 00:38:28:22 - 00:38:44:15 Speaker 1 that is true, there becomes a real problem and we are gnawing at the edges here, trying to say that all puts some small thing in place and it will all work out. The structure is there are so many things to be tweaked in the structure that can make this work a lot better. 00:38:44:17 - 00:38:59:11 Speaker 1 And I would assume that by doing some of these things, little by little by little the percentages can start going up from 14 to 24, 34, and it can start creeping up towards more implementation right? 00:38:59:14 - 00:39:03:14 Speaker 2 Yeah. And what I would also like to add over here is Sathya that the 00:39:03:14 - 00:39:12:10 Speaker 2 what we see today, that the parastatals that we see as a problem there, a problem with the way the positioned, the placed today, these can be potential 00:39:12:10 - 00:39:17:20 Speaker 2 contributors and good contributors and can be positioned positively to actually contribute to the group. 00:39:17:20 - 00:39:37:21 Speaker 2 They're already doing it. Let us just bring in that alignment and let them start to contribute to the growth of the city. But in a very coordinated manner, of course, and that's all that is required, nothing more. They are still doing it. And if this parastatal let them become accountable to the elected government and let them function accordingly, that's all that is needed. 00:39:37:23 - 00:39:45:18 Speaker 2 It will take time. Government. The state is a huge beast, which goes very slowly. We all know the fifties left the movement. 00:39:45:18 - 00:39:52:06 Speaker 1 And there has to be incremental movement being shown on a continuous basis to see do we have a roadmap 00:39:52:06 - 00:39:56:20 Speaker 1 towards the ideal state and how are we moving towards that ideal state. But still 00:39:56:20 - 00:40:03:03 Speaker 1 the improvement in implementation percentage, this might solve it to a certain extent, which is coordination and getting the plans aligned 00:40:03:03 - 00:40:06:00 Speaker 1 on the ground, like a simple project, like 00:40:06:00 - 00:40:22:22 Speaker 1 a footpath that we try to do in our area when there are so many contestations on the ground, like from every entry exit to every restaurant owner who thinks he's he can speak directly to the MLA, destroy this footpath if you put it, you know, I need parking right in front of me. 00:40:23:00 - 00:40:27:16 Speaker 1 There are so many of these that implementation is a struggle when you even make the plan. 00:40:27:22 - 00:40:28:08 Speaker 2 Yes. 00:40:28:13 - 00:40:48:12 Speaker 1 When you said this 12 meter road has to be 18 meter, I just went and looked at the road that is going to take away the whole it's like this main road has 12 meters or in some places eight meters. It just narrows down. And there are so many businesses now and that place is in the proposed land uses 12 meters. 00:40:48:14 - 00:41:09:02 Speaker 1 It could be, but it could destroy a lot. So are there if you did bottom of planning, if the ward came back and said, hey, this is eight meters and we are okay with it being what it is, wouldn't that help? That is that the intelligence you think is useful on the ground to not make that 18 meter line on the map because 12 meter is good enough? 00:41:09:02 - 00:41:33:12 Speaker 2 Yes, that is an intelligence and that is very much important to get into the conversations right now. Let me just pick up the same example. Suppose I am sitting in this water and I'm saying, look, my 12 meters. It's fine. I don't want it because right now what I'm saying, it seems to be functioning well. I have these mixed land uses on both sides and I I'm, you know, I am able to I have a walkable neighborhood. 00:41:33:12 - 00:41:51:18 Speaker 2 I don't need to pull out my car. What if you think I if I step out of my house, I have everything that happens within 10 minutes walk. And I don't want this road to go 18 meters because a lot of these shops will go that's just a this is the this is an intelligence I gather from the ward However, as urban, I'm sitting at the city level. 00:41:51:20 - 00:42:13:09 Speaker 2 Let me say that exactly what you're saying, that in this what the road is 12 meters over here it is 18 meters as it enters the ward in the ward before it is 18 meters. And in the ward next to it, it is 18 meters right. So as a technical person, then I see what is also happening. It is creating this traffic jam over here. 00:42:13:12 - 00:42:37:09 Speaker 2 So I, I that I understand the field. You're okay. But for the functioning of the larger city, I will have to expand this to 18 meters. Now, what that intelligence then tells me is that you know data these let's see 50 shops on 25 each on either side which need to be accommodated. So what if I have to do 18 meters? 00:42:37:09 - 00:43:01:05 Speaker 2 I will do it. But I before that I need to find a space for picking these 25 or 15 shops. I need to either push them back or too. And that's a messy tradeoffs. But and that's why any kind of realistic planning is always a dynamic process and it takes forever. But it's much more durable, it's much more sustainable, and it's much more owned by everybody 00:43:01:11 - 00:43:22:07 Speaker 2 So it will take time, for instance, or then if that is not possible, that's a tradeoff. As a planner, I I'm trained to make, but I will have to see how do I manage that 18 meters on both sides and what do I do with the way divert certain kind of traffic? Do I divert certain kind of users from this so that I do not generate so much traffic? 00:43:22:13 - 00:43:43:22 Speaker 2 Those are some of the things that I start to understand and those are the trade offs. There is never a perfect solution. Planning is a very, very complicated problem. Like the city itself is a wicked problem. So what, as best I can do is resolve the issue and that resolution is a continuous process and that intelligence is important, but only up to a certain point. 00:43:43:22 - 00:44:02:06 Speaker 2 Beyond that, then I need to come in. And that's where you have a professionally trained cadre of planners who say this is how it is possible, but you need both these sets or multiple knowledge sets to come together and do a trade off and do a collaboration, which will be working for everybody. 00:44:02:06 - 00:44:03:17 Speaker 2 That's how it has to work. 00:44:03:17 - 00:44:30:19 Speaker 1 use the right word. It's a messy process. It's a long time consuming process to ability to have these conversations at the individual level. You are right, right. This 12 meter road is on one side ends in a railway line with the ring road is 24 plus meters or hundred meters. Whatever and on this side is a lot more and people kind of think that okay let me just in the BDA office draw this 18 meters like all the way like that. 00:44:30:21 - 00:44:47:16 Speaker 1 I, I didn't even know until I looked at the master plan that hey the the PLU this is going to be 18 meters or like 18 meters not required. Why is this required here? Because it's a perfectly. All right. There are alternates to how that conversation never happened. But that conversation can't happen when 00:44:47:16 - 00:44:49:00 Speaker 1 the master planning is said. 00:44:49:01 - 00:45:10:20 Speaker 1 2017. Let's do the master plan. You got six months. Let's go. Right? I mean, what what are the intricacies in making? And second thing I wanted to ask you was like going to the mixed use itself, Right? It's a concept many people have seen here seem to like the gentrification because it is smooth when you take the car right? 00:45:10:20 - 00:45:26:19 Speaker 1 I mean, it's nice to see that. But a lot of people do intuitively understand the people who actually use the services on the street. Like if you go to a street vendor and buy from that person, if you're sending a driver to buy your groceries, you're not going to understand. But if people who actually go and buy, they seem to understand. 00:45:26:19 - 00:45:41:01 Speaker 1 Yeah, because they're but maybe a little bit nicer way of accommodating these people would be good. But we've seen mostly examples from the U.S. of different way of structuring layout that is clear 00:45:41:01 - 00:45:49:09 Speaker 1 shops you to go there and buyer to walk across a two kilometer parking, not just to get to the store and come back. The offices are here, the houses are here. 00:45:49:12 - 00:46:07:15 Speaker 1 That is one way of laying it out. What do you suggest lends itself nicely to. I think it's got mixed use. You can explain this better. Lends itself nice to you to go into the neighborhood. If you just want some dhaniya from the corner, you don't have to take the car out and shop for the whole week before you can get that on your back. 00:46:07:15 - 00:46:17:14 Speaker 1 You right. And it leads to more fresh approaches coming in. There's a lot of lot of stuff. How can we leverage this? Because while there is mixed use, there's also misuse. In some places. 00:46:17:14 - 00:46:26:07 Speaker 1 I call it the mixed use misuse, right? I mean, if you don't misuse it, mixed use can be good. What what you see as the future of how we're laid out or are there any comparable examples? 00:46:26:07 - 00:46:39:23 Speaker 1 Because we seem to always be looking at the US for examples. Where where else do you think this kind of thing has been leveraged positively? Do you think it's an advantage? How should people view the neighborhood kirana shop? 00:46:39:23 - 00:47:02:02 Speaker 2 so let me start with two things. Number one, I think at least within the U.S. is a bad model of urbanization It's a it's a it's a very spread out model of urbanization, which is highly, highly automobile dependent. And today, a lot of what we are seeing in terms of emissions and climate change, it's it's got to do with those license. 00:47:02:04 - 00:47:22:15 Speaker 2 So that's one part of the story. Let me take that take you back to any old evolved historical traditions of India. What you have is of mixed use We've always lived in neighborhoods where there is a shop in the front, in the house, at the back. There's a shop below and a house on top. We have always had mixed use compact cities. 00:47:22:17 - 00:47:48:18 Speaker 2 The West only woke up to it in the recent past where they are talking about a 15 minute city and the walkable city or the walkable neighborhood. We have always had mixed use cities. The problem also in the master plan is that it starts to look at single use, primary use. It can reuse kind of it overlays that imagination on on the fabric, which is largely mixed use. 00:47:48:18 - 00:48:11:17 Speaker 2 And that's the conflict. That's why you cannot implement a lot of those things. What the master plan is talking about, we have been telling the of Government of Karnataka, the Karnataka Town and Country Planning Act, has to change to bring in the category of mixed use. And then you recognize the mixed use that exists on the ground and call it the mixed use on the map, except we don't have it right now. 00:48:11:19 - 00:48:32:18 Speaker 2 I think this was put in as early as 2012 or 2011. There is a file. I pursued the file for a while, but we haven't been able to bring the mixed use as a category in the master plan. Okay. So we actually have a yellow residential, yet a residential mixed commercial commercial mixed like that. We call it a mixed land use. 00:48:32:18 - 00:49:02:18 Speaker 2 And then you were calling the spade a spade. It's easier to plan for it then. That's the first thing. The second thing, we do have mixed land uses, but what we don't do not have a walkable neighborhood. That's because there is a lot of haphazard development that we allow the mixed use as it exists. It's like if you want a vending zone, you want vendors that are part of our everyday living and they are not only for the vendor himself or herself. 00:49:02:19 - 00:49:24:15 Speaker 2 That's their livelihood. We cannot fight them away. We need them. It's like your domestic help to the rich locality does need all its domestic help coming in and working for them. And those those people need houses. So you need to have a high income and middle income and the low income all housing together in close proximity, because otherwise you would not get needs. 00:49:24:15 - 00:49:44:17 Speaker 2 They would not take a bus and come to your house. They walk in whatever it is walking. We find that that so if there is a high end development something and if there you will find either squatters coming up or close by village, which gets transformed to support the type development to support. Now the mixed use concept is already there. 00:49:44:17 - 00:50:08:14 Speaker 2 We need to recognize it, to make it, to make those mixed use viable and potentially positive, you need to start planning for those mixed use. Vendors have to sit in the vending zone. so they cannot just spread themselves better what they want. That's a function of enforcement, which is we're also we are lacking right. Let me give you the example of the BDA complex of Jayanagar. 00:50:08:16 - 00:50:30:23 Speaker 2 If you actually go back. Then we traced that complex and we said how it was planned. It's one of the most beautifully planned complex that existed once upon a time where they were shops, they were renting, so there was parking and then there was a footpath. It was beautifully planned and it took land complex. They broke it down and everything that was contained within that complex. 00:50:31:01 - 00:51:02:15 Speaker 2 It has been broken down. It has a bad design. You have all the vendors spilling onto the roads and you create the problem. Doesn't make any sense. But besides giving taking away footpaths so, what we need to do is work on those neighborhoods and see that these neighborhoods need to be planned for walking for non-motorised any sort of mobility, plus the mixed use that is existing, plus its larger role in the city, plus the role of the larger city now on this with those things don't come together 00:51:02:15 - 00:51:23:03 Speaker 2 We are in a mess. And what we are doing right now is only reacting to the best. One way to resolve this issue is to start proactively look them and see, okay, proactively, what is it that I can do about it? So we have mixed uses. Let's use that as a strength. That Indian cities of how do you improve those mixed uses? 00:51:23:03 - 00:51:28:06 Speaker 2 And I think the TOD plans, the TOD frameworks, that policy that has come in now, 00:51:28:06 - 00:51:47:18 Speaker 2 perhaps meet it needs. There are problems with that too. We keep seeing transit oriented development. I'm still just running through it now, right now. But I think we also need to, in some parts of the city, start to understand how the transit itself supports the development that is existing. 00:51:47:18 - 00:52:16:22 Speaker 2 You know, you have an existing land use over there. Look at it, you have that. How do we keep saying within 6 minutes, walking 6 minutes, cycling in 6 minutes, bus we go to plan or make a plan, one that transit oriented development. I think it's a development oriented transit that also needs to be brought in to I think it's the TOD policy is more about land use that is it is about transit. 00:52:17:00 - 00:52:39:05 Speaker 2 It is. And if you read that, you will understand that, right? So and you are not you're not bringing in the land use aspect at all is to continuously focusing on the transit bus. So but I think the policy has potential and I think it makes it can in many ways, if they do what they are saying, that they will be triggering of a bottom up planning process, but without the missing framework. 00:52:39:05 - 00:52:41:03 Speaker 2 So I think that needs to be put in place. 00:52:41:03 - 00:52:49:14 Speaker 1 I think the transit oriented development is a catch up because everybody is hanging on to the Floor Area Ratio that provides right because they want FSI they want to be. 00:52:49:16 - 00:52:53:07 Speaker 2 Which we have not been able to exhaust since 2015. 00:52:53:07 - 00:53:10:09 Speaker 2 Why? Because your block sizes like let me give you the example of the Nanda theater road. There is a transit corridor, Metro corridor. Your plots are largely 60-40 plot sizes as well as the cost of land. Think what they said is take an FAR of four 00:53:10:09 - 00:53:12:19 Speaker 2 this it amalgamate the plots in a 60-40. 00:53:12:19 - 00:53:36:06 Speaker 2 How do you exhaust the FAR? amalgamate the plots now as a developer, if I'm going to buy for plot first I have to be a really powerful entity. I cannot be the small developer if I bring in amalgamate the plot. Do you think I will in anything that is non-luxury on those plots 4 60-40 plot? Lots of that, but in that part of the city and it's going to cost me a bomb, what am I going to do? 00:53:36:06 - 00:53:51:10 Speaker 2 I am going to put luxury housing, I'm going to put malls, I'm going to try and use this. Okay. You have reduced the whole philosophy of a transit oriented development. None of those people who visit those development pockets will actually use the transit. They will use the car. 00:53:51:10 - 00:54:07:09 Speaker 1 Yeah. And I think the parking rules need to be. So this is a catch up game, right? You built a very expensive metro 500 crores per kilometer. Now you have to catch up and make it work for yourself. So you're going to have to do transit oriented element to say, Oh, I spent a lot on transit. No, why don't just live here and use this instead? 00:54:07:09 - 00:54:29:08 Speaker 1 So there's a lot of things that go in you have to make parking very expensive. The 100 little things, of course, the character is going to change development or transit is typically done with the bus. When development goes, the bus goes, Yes, you put expensive metro stations to where you found the land. Now you have to bring all the people to where you put the land and said, now live here because my train is here before you approve plots 00:54:29:09 - 00:54:32:16 Speaker 1 So there's so many moving parts in this, Right? So I want to get to 00:54:32:16 - 00:54:46:23 Speaker 1 quickly to the ward level planning and then I want you to give me the closing comments of ward level planning create the ward committees and others are just looking at tactical issues of water drainage and everything. Of course, that's where the plans come from. 00:54:46:23 - 00:54:52:13 Speaker 1 How do you empower people ward budgeting is happening with some of the agencies? Some 00:54:52:13 - 00:54:56:10 Speaker 1 NGOs are already working with ward committees to see how we can 00:54:56:10 - 00:55:25:03 Speaker 1 help them. Budget thing. I think that's one step higher than just complaining of if what's half the start giving you with people's inputs on qualitatively and quantitatively saying how many people actually walk to this place and use vendors you can observe we can do what does it take at the ward level to get people to help you plan and then feed it back because that's easier manageable from an from a civil society perspective to go to and say, hey, can you include these five things? 00:55:25:05 - 00:55:32:22 Speaker 1 Well in your so that next time the masterplan is done, you say, hey, look, we have a plan. How does that work? 00:55:33:00 - 00:55:56:18 Speaker 2 So basically they need to look at their own jurisdictions. And one I keep saying this all the time, the ward itself, the ward committee itself. And that's a question of awareness. It's a question of conversations need to move beyond a mere grievance redressal platform. Right now, my streetlights. And that's not I'm not reducing it. Those problems are really critical. 00:55:56:20 - 00:56:19:07 Speaker 2 But that's not the only thing. So for getting started, first the councilors, the ward office, which actually, if you ask me and I've been saying this, let's put up a map of the big one at the counselor's office. Visualize the map, visualize the ward said, This is my map of my jurisdiction this is my road, this is my footpath. 00:56:19:07 - 00:56:32:14 Speaker 2 This is my solid waste, right? No, we don't. Do we have no visualization around it? Vacant. That's the place. But start to encourage the council and the council will do it because it's the basis of the election 00:56:32:14 - 00:56:46:04 Speaker 2 and that's very, very good. It's a win win for both. Let the council tell the people and the ward committee and I am completely aware of what are some of the problems with the ward committees, What are some of the problems with the political representative? 00:56:46:04 - 00:57:07:10 Speaker 2 Like everyone else, let's give it a try. They will learn from their mistakes. Everybody will suffer but come back. It's a process that we have all cities across the world have got. So who may go through a mayhem, but the mayhem won't be any less than what we are, right? You're right. So let's do that. To let the ward become a planning unit. 00:57:07:12 - 00:57:33:04 Speaker 2 And what you read is a planner sitting there is other technical skills sitting there apart from your experts, your ward councilors, your civil citizens, and everybody else who gets nominated or elected. But you do need also technical skills. No shortage of technical skills in this country. People are looking for jobs. Planners and mobility experts and environmentalist and housing specialists are looking for jobs in absorb them. 00:57:33:04 - 00:57:36:15 Speaker 2 That and get them to prepare plans. 00:57:36:15 - 00:57:56:18 Speaker 2 If the planning is and I repeat this planning is a technical activity, but it isn't. It is the technicalities of planning. We only sit well and get unleashed if we are to be able to rely on different knowledge systems. The socio economic fabrics understand all this and that we cannot do it as a planner on your own. 00:57:56:18 - 00:58:18:07 Speaker 2 You can trigger that understanding through different collaborations. So that is needed very much. And then take the plan and say, This is what my requirement is. Let's say there are two wards sitting next to each other. Both of them want a primary school, let's say to both of them, want a college. The municipality can then clearly see here, instead of giving funds to college, essentially one college will put the wards or maybe 4 wards can access. 00:58:18:11 - 00:58:23:00 Speaker 2 I'm just giving a very simple example, but that's what the Bbmp is supposed to do, 00:58:23:00 - 00:58:39:06 Speaker 2 Or maybe the education wing through the BBMP or whatever. But that's, that's the way it has to be sorted. So planning at the ward level, it's not a problem. You need a masterplan budget which gets disaggregated to a ward budget and once the ward is has its budget, let them plan. 00:58:39:06 - 00:58:46:11 Speaker 2 They will always never be enough money, but there will be at least sufficient money to do things which people want and which people will 00:58:46:11 - 00:58:54:00 Speaker 1 I want to conclude the top three things that are low hanging over, low hanging. But let's just go for top three from your side. 00:58:54:00 - 00:59:09:13 Speaker 1 There's a huge structural issues. There is the ward level things and this things between there should for the next the new government that is coming in. If you and I would take something to them and say to test three things, what would that be. 00:59:09:13 - 00:59:31:22 Speaker 2 from a planners perspective, I would say actually the ward plan is a low hanging fruit today because the ward committees in many places I'm not saying all across the city, but many places the pick up, the ten wards that are working, committees that are working, stock them on a process of plan number one simultaneously, stop the master plan or the city plan process number two and code. 00:59:32:00 - 00:59:57:15 Speaker 2 Start to build capacities or start to look, not say, let's not take capacity. That's not low hanging. I think the capacities exist none of us know what exist, what doesn't. But the third thing is start to have conversations within the arms of the government and see we want to provide a plan, put out ten newspaper advertisement saying that the city is going for a plan, which is which is going to be a public process. 00:59:57:15 - 01:00:08:03 Speaker 2 Let's do it. What What's holding us? Let's do it. And let's say we want to prepare for that. The ward can plan. Let the master plan come. Let's see where they could 01:00:08:03 - 01:00:16:04 Speaker 2 collide or not collide or talk to each other. It's something that we will only do once. We'd like now be it in a complete limbo. And it's not good. 01:00:16:06 - 01:00:43:08 Speaker 2 I believe I got to I got a forward from one of my colleagues, which is from the DIC, and they have another report which is saying that as the draft 2031 was motivated, this was new for me. Also somebody has gone basis that if that approval went and took permission for the building that had to be constructed. Now that building this is as per the 2031 approved plan which was later the approval was taken. 01:00:43:10 - 01:01:03:05 Speaker 2 Since it was approved, I had the planning permission to go ahead with the building. Now the building is complete and they're not giving me a post. So they went to court and the court said, You have to give them and we'll see because you approved the block. Yeah, right. So I'm just thinking because I never thought any action had been taken. 01:01:03:05 - 01:01:21:16 Speaker 2 As for the plan, but obviously action has been taken and they may be several of them, except that it's a city like Bangalore, which is fairly forward looking, which is fairly sits very well. as far as the urban agenda of the country is concerned. We are relying on a 2007 masterplan thats 01:01:21:16 - 01:01:29:09 Speaker 1 I wanted to end on that note, but I had a bonus question which I actually forgot to ask at the beginning because I want to go back to this. 01:01:29:09 - 01:01:44:16 Speaker 1 You we are growing very fast. You admitted that. We all know that. We know how fast cities are growing. Is a 15 year timeline for the master plan good enough? Even if the plan is 15 years, are there intermediate adjustments that need to be done? 01:01:44:18 - 01:01:56:07 Speaker 1 Because this seems to be too big a timeline when we look at how fast we are growing. So what do you think, how these things can be? Because it also led me to think about the ward level planning is that more frequent? How do you 01:01:56:07 - 01:01:57:22 Speaker 1 envision the update frequency for this? 01:01:58:03 - 01:02:24:22 Speaker 2 So Sathya your question is moot if you start to think of the new process. Right? The ward level planning is not one time activity. It's continuously happening. So you're bringing in dynamism. And that's what the main idea of planning was, that how do you move from a static plan to a dynamic plan? And the world in its currently mostly, let's say it meets every month, it meets every three months on proactively on deciding on certain issues. 01:02:25:00 - 01:02:52:09 Speaker 2 It's already bringing in dynamism into the plan, and that gets constantly updated into the master plan is should not be a one time activity. That's another flaw to the the larger framework. Yes, I would say ten years. You just put down the larger framework because you need a justification. Okay. So you put that down and you see within that the continuous updation will happen from the ground. 01:02:52:09 - 01:03:14:01 Speaker 2 You know, for example, certain non-negotiables here are my lakes, my tanks, my flood plains. These are non buildable. I have mapped them, I've put them there now every world will have to be able to visualize if you're seeing there's a there's a tank here, there's a lake here, there's a water body here. This cannot be touched. Do touch this. 01:03:14:01 - 01:03:16:23 Speaker 2 Anything else? You plan it out and I'm ready to approve it. 01:03:16:23 - 01:03:19:12 Speaker 2 Right. That's the dynamism we need to bring in. 01:03:19:12 - 01:03:46:03 Speaker 1 So the example would be, let's say this is marked as residential. It allowed C1. I want to upgrade to C2. PSP maybe you're not sorry. These are technical terms We want to include a little bit more commercial or we want to change some things that could be the upgrade. We want to build a college which is PSP4 and I want to bring that level of category to this is that the kind of land use upgrades you see happening rather than go and touch the green. 01:03:46:05 - 01:04:07:18 Speaker 2 Yes. So now if I'm and this is real time, I need a college look my court, my court, my I need a public health center. Let's say I don't have it. And I'm not being idealistic when I'm saying these things, but planning has always been a public process till about two decades, three decades ago. We've been trained to think of it as a public process, as a public good. 01:04:07:20 - 01:04:27:00 Speaker 2 I want a public health center. I don't have it. I need it now. Let me identify. I since I'm able to see my world, my corporate office, I know that plot is empty. I know that plot belongs to so-and-so person. Either you take it or find a government land and let's put it up there. Like that's the kind of. 01:04:27:00 - 01:04:45:23 Speaker 2 But there is also a water body here in my in my in my ward And I want this to be preserved as it is. I know it cannot be constructed. I'll look at the buffer It's a no construction zone. So if there is a builder who's proposing something here, I know I have to say no, you're able to visualize it. 01:04:46:04 - 01:05:04:03 Speaker 2 And technology today can really help the lot of this visualization in real time so that we don't want these We don't want to because that becomes a problem also from the ten. So I think this question of this 15 years, ten years is dynamism, static is more difficult. The new process is. 01:05:04:03 - 01:05:19:13 Speaker 1 that wonderful note. Thanks Anjali for coming on. It was a very interesting conversation. I like to pick up some of these things again, if you have the time to come back on the show and let's pick up on one or two of these issues and deep dive. My pleasure 01:05:19:13 - 01:05:34:16 Speaker 1 just another call out people to like, subscribe and share these videos so we can bring more interesting guests on back and talk more stuff that could change the nature of urban governance and urban mobility in the city. 01:05:34:18 - 01:05:38:20 Speaker 1 These are all interconnected issues. And see you all next week. Bye bye.